Having survived Croyden decided to look at Harrogate 2008. It would appear goal posts have been moved, a minimum of 4 Frames now required, scoring altered and lower category medals starting 5 points below current ratings. Also it would appear only difference between National and International Class is the number of Frames required.

Croydon I believe had around 400 frames of Exhibits, but Harrogate is talking 175. Does this mean it will be harder to get an Exhibit accepted for Harrogate?

If the rules for our National competitiions are evolving, I can live with it.
If they are simply going to change each year, without learning lessons from the past, then I feel we have a problem.
Also serious consideration needs to be given to display conditions.
Light, heat, security and age of frames all need addressing in my opinion

No argument, transparency is the key as to the Rules. As far as conditions go much needs to be learnt, Croydon could have been better.

Stamp collection is for fools! Myself included

We pay exhorbitant prices for bits of sticky paper - then pay hundreds more to have the privalege of showing them to others who have little or no interest.

A ridiculous system that only fools would put up with

Competitions are a waste of time

I know i've been there and got the bills to prove it

Who can suggest a better way?

Hello Robin

You're a right old cynic, although I do agree with some of your observations, and those in the thread above.
I looked very closely at the Rules and Guidance for International competition as set out in the FIP booklet. They certainly do not mark competitive entries according to their own rules, but increasingly interpret them to meet changing circumstances.

No longer do you get marks for genuine original research. If this was worth 15 marks say, then probably none of the Grand Prix and Large Gold Medal winners would win, despite spending £millions on their collections which consist mostly of superb well documented items about which very little ORIGINAL research is possible. But if these big hitters were not rewarded, the trade would certainly suffer.

My researches into the FIP rules, 12 pages or more has been put on a website somewhere if you have nothing better to do. Not sure where though !

I take issue with you (Robin) regarding competitions. They are an opportunity for people to see what are regarded generally, as good examples of a particular subject. The frame fees are climbing, and that is putting me off, but a recent note from ABPS indicates for national UK exhibits these fees are being subsidised down to £10, which helps.

I also disagree with you about 'showing to others who have little or no interest'. I have found to the contrary, and many people are interested, to varying degrees of course. It depends on what you are showing, how you present it (keep it not too technical to appeal to a wider audience)and the quality of the material (not necessarily value or rarity).

You followed the paper and flourescence trail to a highly specialised degree, no doubt with great satisfaction and fulfilment. Few others have gone to that extent, so you may have become disillusioned by what you see as disinterest and apathy. Not so, each one to his own.

Do you differentiate between competitions (waste of time you say) and exhibitions?

This conversation can go for some time I reckon

Cynical maybe but factual.

Why should I pay to show my material?

Of course - exhibitions are asked for and more often than not expenses offered.

My hobby has given me much satisfaction - esp. when at odds with DM.

But now I can not really afford it and that is what makes me mad

Each to his own - well where are all the specialists in modern stamps now? machins are out, booklets are out, beer mats and postcards are in

Specialisation has gone too far and those who flocked to the ranks are now dying off or dropping out.

Machins and booklets in particular.

The problem always is that the majority want the minority to work and inform them of their findings.

This of course affects competitions and exhibitions - the few have shown what they have got, some have medals they deserve, others have medals they do not deserve - but have been awarded because of the judges lack of specialist knowledge.

This Society should do much more to encourage more general collection. Who amongst us has a general collection of GB stamps - covering all aspects of stamps etc. issued during the reing of the present monarch? Nobody.

The Post Office has seen fit to issue a lot of material and collectors need deep pockets to keep up - so nobody does.

Specialisation is the order of the day - however that also becomes flawed for various reasons, usually expensive ones.

Deegam himself states that it is virtually impossible to make a complete collection of all Machins.
There are very few who have attempted it - booklets (a specialisation within a specialisation) are another field where completeness is never achieved - here the specialisation has now been broken up into types of books. (A note of warning here - self adhesive stamps are extremely liable to deterioration if not kept exactly so)

My own pet theory at the moment GB collectors have given up on collecting all GB stamps, especially those from the three Crown Dependancies - which are all British, whos population consider they are British and who carry British passports. How many of these Independant Issues do you have in your collection.

Even our Webmaster is unable or unwilling to show any of their material on this site.

Stamp collection is a mess and self interested individuals seem to want it kept that way

Who is willing to dispute this?

Robin,

I dispute what you say on practically all counts, though your stream of consciousness rant makes it difficult to formulate any kind of rational response.

There are plenty of folk out there that collect a wide range of GB material - I spoke to a number of them at the GBPS stand at London 2010. My guess is that most of us started out that way with collections embracing not only GB, but a number of other countries as well. Only when you've seen the menu can you decide whether to have a sample dish with small portions of all the chef's specialities, or go for your favourite main course. I suggest the GBPS wisely believes that its role is encourage people to collect whatever they want, not to force them into or away from specialisation.

Many folk do specialise, some quite narrowly, but if one has a favourite subject what gives you or me the right to criticise? It's those people who study their chosen subject in depth who make the new discoveries and provide the fresh insights from which all of us benefit. Of course it's the minority who publish their findings. So what's wrong with that? How much did you publish when you were a wet-behind-the-ears collector?

If specialisation is the order of the day, and I don't necessarily agree that it is, that's entirely the decision of the individual collector, nobody's forcing him/her to specialise. It's called freedom of choice.

I note your negativity about National Competitions. Are they flawed? Yes. Do judges make mistakes? Certainly. Could things be better? Undoubtedly. But moaning achieves nothing. Discussing problems, making constructive suggestions, having grown-up challenging discussions with judges (most of whom appear to be human, reasonable and even quite knowledgeable about stamps, even modern ones) is a much more productive approach. You will probably have noted Tony Walker's well-merited Gold at London. If you feel that judges' lack of knowledge about modern stamps is a problem, may I suggest that you put your own obviously encyclopaedic knowledge at their disposal by training as a judge yourself!

In the meantime, Robin, I shall continue to collect as I wish. With regard to National and international competitions, I shall read the rules and seek to understand the guidance that comes with them. I shall then formulate my exhibit accordingly. I will not then moan about the rules after the event. As to the judges, I have no control over their deliberations. I do not always agree with them, but they are not stupid or deliberately biased or dishonest. They are human and make human mistakes. So do I.

Ray Simpson

Dear RobinT and Ray, and others interested in this thread,

Everybody is making good points, in essence everybody is in the same boat pointed in the same direction, but the oars are all mixed up. It seems to me that the real issue here is how to ensure the continuing health of a very broad-based hobby, that brings satisfaction and pleasure to all involved - that is not hijacked by small vested interests - with a trade that gets focussed on the most profitable of the narrower ones.

Exhibitions, and national exhibitions reflect one aspect of the hobby, and the most heavily invested-in, one way or another (time, or money, or emotion, or whatever). They are a reflection of the people who are involved and within them, those who put in the biggest investment. The only way to change that situation is from within - and that holds as good for stamp collecting, pigeon fancying or antique car collecting and so on. Attacks from outside usually produce a closing of the ranks.

The best way to achieve one's aims if they differ strongly is to offer attractive alternative(s). There is no doubt that a show of some kind is beneficial to anybody who sees it. Everybody can learn something from a show.

The GBPS has a superb journal, and extraordinary newsletter, and this discussion board. The society has about 1000 members I suppose, of which over 700 are listed for the discussion board. I have not counted the different contributors over the last couple of years, but it is depressingly few. Less than 10% I guess. Could it be that members simply are not aware of the possibilities herein?

In the month since I discovered it I have seen flaws and errors on stamps, learned an enormous amount, and am really enthralled. I am really disappointed at the terribly low rate of response and how there are so many people out the who KNOW the answers to queries, but for one reason or another are not sharing.

There is now a new aspect of the society that has a truly incredible potential... it was announced in detail in the last newsletter (#324 July/August 2010) on page 30. Displays on the GBPS website. If anybody reading this has not been to the site and looked at the few currently available - do so. Please.

I went to the Machin display first and was utterly crushed looking at the quality and quantity. If this is what exhibitions is all about, heaven help the likes of me! But the other displays are less complex and more calming. As I calmed down, I realized that here is a way for ALL members to share - note the word, share their achievements and give us all a chance to see how we are doing ourselves.

The society IS superb. It gives its members an astonishingly high grade of service, and a very wide range of services at that. RobinT, here is somewhere for you to show your Channel Islands material - I guarantee at least one person will look at it - and respond.

As for the formal exhibitions and shows - is it not possible for at least a few of the exhibitors to subsequently put their exhibits on the Website?

By the way, the article suggests scanning at 600dpi or higher - which would result in far too high loads for most servers to handle. Could Maurice Buxton please tell us the recommended way of actually sending very big loads like a frame? Thanks.

Best to all, Robin Restall

But there

Hi Everyone

You all make collecting sound so complicated. I don't think it is. Philately is an entirely voluntary pursuit, at least for the collectors, and as such we can collect what we like and how we like, governed only by the depth of our pockets. The latter will always be a bone of contention of course, if you are wealthy you buy up the choice items and win the big medals. Just like the Premier League.

However is it not a much greater achievement to build up a fine collection from a more modest investment of £sd (sorry £p, I'm in pre-decimal mode) but with a much greater investment in time, patience, search and research? - something the big hitters miss out on.

This alternative method of collecting which probably embraces 98.47% of philatelists does inevitably drift towards some kind of specialisation. This is not a dirty word. You could say every collection other than a whole world collection is to an extent a specialisation. We had a glorious display last season by a member who 'specialised'in Commonwealth George VI, just the straightforward stamps neatly resented. They don't make them like that any more.

The more specialised you become the fewer people are in there with you. That doesn't matter, because you have chosen that route for your own fulfilment. It is extremely flattering if other philatelists find your material of interest - far more satisfying that medals.

Each one t his/her own I say

PS Good to see Robin Restall entering the fray. Where's that GVI Coronation issue tome?

Well said, Tony.

Stamp collecting should be about enjoyment, not conforming to someone else's view of what you should and shouldn't do.

Like Tony, I have the greatest respect for the person who assembles his collection over decades, lavishing love, care and attention on it, learning about it, making discoveries (small or great) and sharing his enthusiasm with others by displaying or exhibiting. And if you can please and impress your peers, you've achieved something that outweighs a gold medal.

Perhaps I could add that my greatest pleasure these days comes from research. Challenging old theories and assertions; making new discoveries, new connections and simply adding a little to the understanding of our stamps brings immense satisfaction, and perhaps leaves just a little legacy for those who will come after.

Ray Simpson

Jake, Ray and all,

Thanks for the footnote, Jake! After 20 years being deeply immersed in producing field guides for the birds of northern South America - including painting more than 7000 birds - I have come back to life and found my feet with the GVI book. I'm now working 50/50 on the two different fields and attempting to build up enough contacts for research. I cannot believe the material I accumulated over 30 years - all on a single stamp! If you're willing to help me understand some of the mysteries of covers of the KG period, please contact me off-line. robinrestall@gmail.com

Cheers and best wishes, Robin (Restall)

collecting stamps is as complex as you want it to be. However the depth of you pocket and the availability of material, will govern any collection.
This is especially true about modern material, where no one has gone before - who will lead the way.

With british material the baton was picked up by many, enthusiastically. Unfortunately those enthusiasts are fast disappearing and the study of british stamps, as opposed to their collection is waning.

This is not suprising given the numbers issued and the costs involved. However all postal administrations, who issue stamps have seen the 'financial light' and there is an unwilling acceptance by collectors.

I know of very few collectors who get involved with modern postal history and those who think they should get involved should read on.

The Crown Dependancies have many collectors(box tickers) but few students of their stamps or postal history.

If, like me you study the definitive stamps and particularly the booklets containing them, you soon turn to postal history matters. When, how, why, become important

with the politicalisation of postal services, the secrecy surrounding issues is as bad, or worse, than finding information from the UK PO or even the NPM.
With the privatisation of many postal service boards, or the privatisation of their stamp providers(agents); secrecy is the order of the day followed by improper actions, even fraud is rife - mainly because of the huge amounts of money involved.

Being involved with the Channel Islands, even with their tiny size and population is a nightmare.

So far this has involved an indirect message from the Queen to the Islands, through the Ministry of Justice; with an exceptionally poor response.

It has involved mail being deliberately delivered incorrectly recorded letters stated, by the PO, not to have been delivered; were actually delivered and then transferred to a differing part of the group they belong to, by the privatised former Crown Agents.

This actually involves a breach of the Freedom of information Act and could yet involce Court action.

On top of this those who were the Crown Agents have stated that they passed all their files to the British Library. The material has been seen and the Philatelic Librarian will confirm that the material consists of Requisition Books, which were never completed and running proofs of no excetional value.

What does it all mean? Collectors can only be box tickers, real postal history will not be possible now or in the future

Or will it> Just sticking to the CI --- there is a Parliamentary investigation taking place regarding the 'position' of the Crown Dependancies. If something positive is done the postal service there will have to change. One of their reasons for having so many stamps printed is because of the huge volume of mail generated by the financial industry there. Of course that does not hold water, all the bulk mail involved has no stamps on it!

The other matter that will affect the situation is the investigation into the Post Office. When it became a loss maker circa 1968 the Government thought it would be a brilliant idea to let it make itself a Corporation, whilst they retained a measure of control. Now it has been so badly managed that it is bankrupt, they find they cannot get away from some financial responsibility.

A fine mess!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately this all affects stamp collection - even after the tariff rises in April the PO will still be making a loss on every article it handles.

Should we still continue to collect, especially British Stamps?????

A collectors life!!!!

After spending two years researching my chosen field and then failing completely to interest anyone in what I had found or what I was doing - I bit on the bullet and in spite of my previous salutory experiences, decided to exhibit again.

Hand in day - receptors buried away in the bowels of Business centre Islington with not a single notice indicating the presecnce of the storm trooper from Sheffield - found her eventually. Cost on that day £30.

On the big(?) day went by car to Sheffield - a round trip 0f 320 miles. Lack of information relating to precise location of venue or associated parking, got this stupid old man lost for an hour - not to be recommended in a strage tram infested city!

Eventually got there - missing medal presentation and judging critique.

Found my exhibit at last - it had been transfered by King Francis to a different class. He later stated he could not judge it in the class entered.

Saw what the blind judges thought of my exhibit and then asked what my literature exhibit gained. Then had a tete a tete critique from King Francis, which I considered was absolutely wrong - well I would wouldnt I?

Regrettably he was patronising, unfair and totally wrong in what he said. At the end of his critique he patted me on the knee and said 'keep up the good work' - the living proof that Uriah Heep still lives.

My exhibit gained a silver bronze and FK stated my literature exhibit had gained a silver.

During the two hours I waited, with many others to receive our exhibits back, I watched with amazement at the agility of the geriatric members of Sheffield PS under the direction of their leader.
During this time FK also gave me my medals, which I did not check, being rather uptight at the thought of having to wait and then getting home about Nine in the evening
Finally I got my exhibit back and went to the car park - cost of parking £14

My stamp exhibit contained much new information that had never been published previously and I thought that it showed a new way to collect this type of issue.
The judges comments, on my certificate showed that they did not realise this, their ignorance of the subject was total - their appreciation nil. Further comment was 'few rarities' and 'a straight forward subject treated in a somewhat complex way with some unnecessary information' - it was a study of one issue which involves politics and corruption - information necessary to the subject and the presentation.

Finally when I got home, I eventually checked my medals. FK had down graded both my medals to small bronze - an award I never knew existed! Dont even try to say it was a mistake - it was another deliberate snub.

Will I ever do it again - you have to be joking!
Will I stay in the Society, where there are many like FK? Since I have paid my sub for this year that answer can be delayed.

Robin,
We read your posting with interest and have plenty of sympathy with your
experiences.

Back in the late 1960's Eunice and I formed the Melksham Philatelic Society
in Wiltshire and one of the members was a gentleman who collected the Postal
History of Krakow. He went into the subject in great depth and had
fascinating material which meant nothing to us as it was all in Polish! That
is not to say that we did not find it interesting - we did, particularly
when he gave a display and explained it all to us.

However, when it came to competitions his experiences matched yours very
closely and of course the problem was with the judges. His material was so
unusual that it was likely that the judges knew as much about the subject as
we did and were not in fact capable of judging it properly.

One would normally assume that the information on the entry was correct but
who could know for sure.
The competitor was naturally peevish that the judges did not appreciate the
scarcity and usage of his covers and was most upset at what he considered
was the ignorance of the judges.

In fact, apart from the subject of the competition your posting could have
been penned (typed) by that gentleman forty odd years ago. .

So nothing changes does it.

Keep up the good work - someone, somewhere will appreciate it!

We can certainly sympathise with the experiences you had with expenses,
travel etc. all in all not a good time. The cost of entry these days is so
high that it is a deterrent - what with the stipulations of how many frames
you must enter and the cost of each frame! It is a bone of contention that
the entrants should have to pay such a high fee when it is felt that it is
the competition entries which help attract the visitors to the exhibition.

Nor did we!

As a matter of interest Eunice and I both competed when we first arrived
here in Australia and enjoyed the experiences. We were awarded some pretty
good trophies too - we would rather have a carriage clock than a small
bronze! But when the FIP rules were introduced and we were told that we
would not get anywhere if we continued to display on the pages we were
currently using...(SG Swing22 albums which were ideal as they held the
pages with our postal history on them really firmly in the binder.) That did
it - we voted with our feet and have not competed since.

Regards.
Ron and Eunice.

What fun this hobby is! Not only do we have stamps and covers to intrigue and divert us, the messages posted on this board and others enlighten/instruct/inform/annoy/depress us on an almost daily basis.

I persist in hoping against hope that I will one day read a contribution from Robin T radiating peace and goodwill to all men, including exhibition judges. His account of his recent misadventures elicits sympathy, but I am not sure what his diatribe against Francis and the jury at Sheffield is meant to achieve. We have only Robin's side of the story and he surely cannot expect the rest of us to rally to his support on that basis.

Ron and Eunice's message (1704) was interesting, though quoting an example from the 1960s, when judges were less well trained than they are now, adds little to the debate. The fact is that even successful exhibitors often feel that their efforts are not sufficiently well appreciated/understood by the judges. Does it ever occur to those who complain so vociferously that the fault, or part of it, might lie with the exhibitor who fails to present or explain his subject sufficiently well? Perhaps the difference between the successful and unsuccessful exhibitor is that the former tries to understand the judges' criticisms, grits his teeth and tries again and again until he is able to convince the judges that he is exhibiting something that they cannot dismiss. Very few succesful exhibitors emerge fully fledged from their first venture.

All would be exhibitors should be aware that they are entering an artificial environment. There are some daft rules and odd restrictions. and some of us have already commented on what we see as the stacking of the odds in favour of the very wealthy. If we were going to be put off by such irritants, we would almost certainly have also abandoned the labours of research that have enabled us to compile our present collections and exhibits over many years.

I'm sorry that some have given up, but I guess that it was ever thus, and it helps clear the way for those who haven't.

Ray Simpson

Robin,

The situation and experience you describe is not uncommon in most if not all fields of competition. It is illuminating to read letters written by judges who can be just as bitter and disillusioned. The third corner of the triangle is that of the club or society workers who organize and run the competitions - they too can be just as bitter and just as critical!

The only solution seems to be to work to improve matters as much as possible. Publish one's own material in small doses as often as possible, very importantly - in popular magazines and journals - to raise awareness and interest. Offer to help at shows and above all, be open and generous with time and knowledge. Why not write a book (the pamphlet kind of thing like Kirk's book on KE8) that the GBPS could publish?

In your case, your specialization is, by definition, outside most collectors field of understanding, let alone knowledge. That puts you in a privileged - and blooming difficult position. It is a fact of human behaviour that criticizing from an olympian height guarantees not to make friends and influence people. But that's what you need to do. Your CI display on this website is excellent - I'm hoping you'll put up another, from the heart of your collection, with more didactic text.

Best wishes,

Robin (Restall)

I agree totally with Robin Restall's positive advice about working to improve matters and, in particular, contributing articles on your speciality which will help inform judges. Even if they don't read them when published, include references in your Title Page (or synopsis) drawing attention to what you have published. Perseverance is the key.

Ray Simpson

I state what happened as a warning - I do not expect anything to change as a result - merely letting off steam in public. However I would nbe interested to see how FK replies

I have exhibited since London 2000 and never agreed with any judge - my worst experience was with the now Keeper of the Collection. He did not notice my 4d. Sepia head B, GA cyl. blk in an exhibit he judged and when I put it back in my collection it got folded and ruined - all his fault of course!

I have written articles of all sorts for our mag. and others - I have put material on our website - I did offer my book to the CISS but because I was not going to give it away no more was done. This was then entered at Sheffield, but as FK MAY be correct in his criticism it will stay out of harms way until altered or someone asks for a copy - not going to be free either.
Just for robinr I will endeavor to put some more advnced material on the web, but didactic?
Instruction to a collector is like a red rag to a bull - I seek to enlighten

Material sent to webmaster
If anyone wants to see the exhibit in question - request it through the webmaster

Neither Francis K, nor any one else in authority has replied to the true critism levelled during Sheffields failure

subsequently I have shown a display on our website only to have to remeove it as I found a serious error.

Two more displays have been offered and have not been shown. Whilst I recognise the difficulties of utilising unpaid, sometimes co-erced voluteers - the result is still the same items are not shown.

Since the on line computor based exhibit should be an ideal vehicle for our hobby; should we not pay for this service which could be an indispensable one?